Karan Thapar: Hello and welcome to Devil's Advocate. It is the Communist Party of India's 80th anniversary, making it the second oldest political party in the country. Have age and circumstances made the party irrelevant? That in a sense is the central question that I shall put today in an exclusive interview to the general secretary of the party Mr A B Bardhan.
Mr Bardhan, let me start with a blunt question. The last election, the CPI's share of popular vote collapsed to 1.41 per cent, which is lower than the Trinamul Congress, the TDP, the NCP, the RJD, even the AIADMK. Why should the people of India take your party so seriously?
A B Bardhan: Please remember that we contested only 35 seats. They contested many more seats. We could have done so, but in the age of coalition, when you are adjusting with many parties, you necessarily contest less seats.
Karan Thapar: You are saying the explanation lies in the number of seats you contested. But of the six national parties in the country, your share at 1.41 per cent is even lower than the NCP. And the NCP is only six years old.
A B Bardhan: But it contested - ask them how many seats.
Karan Thapar: In fact, if it was not for the fact that the Election Commission changed the definition of a national party, the CPI would have ceased to be a national party last year.
A B Bardhan: That is not true. That is falsehood which is being propagated. You see we were a recognised party all through. Suddenly, they had changed it once when they made one clause that 11 seats must be there.
Karan Thapar: Quite right. And you didn't fit in that category?
A B Bardhan: No. But there were 'or'. And the or contained that if you are also recognised in five other states.
Karan Thapar: Four other states.
A B Bardhan: Yes, four other states.
Karan Thapar: If it was five, you might just have missed it?
A B Bardhan: No, we have five.
Karan Thapar: Don't you see it's the existence of the 'or' clause that a party that is recognised as a state party in four states qualifies as a national party that permits you to continue?
A B Bardhan: At any time, there can be many options how you have to be recognised. That was one of the options.
Karan Thapar: Let's look at it like this. Bengal is considered to be out of the bastions of the CPI. In the May, 2006 Assembly elections, your share of popular vote in Bengal collapsed to 1.79 per cent. That's 50 per cent of the RSP vote and just 30 per cent of the Forward Block. Even in Bengal, you don't count.
A B Bardhan: Please remember that we contested only three seats. And we won all the three. As for the RSP and Forward Block, they contested many more than us, but landed up with only three each.
Karan Thapar: You only manage to win seats because you are in alliance and the other parties won't split your vote. Had you not been in an alliance, you won't have won those seats.
A B Bardhan: This is a funny assumption. As if they could have won all the seats without our help in those sectors!
Karan Thapar: Must have, you gave them all and you are contesting in only three seats.
A B Bardhan: There is a historic reason why we are contesting three seats. We came late in that front. There were no vacancy left.
Karan Thapar: Mr Bardhan, I have so many different explanations that sound like excuses. Even your great rivals, the BJP, has a vote share in Bengal that is almost three times yours. There vote share is 5.19 per cent. Yours is just 1.79 per cent.
A B Bardhan: As I told you, we contested only three seats out of 42 and they contested many more.
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Karan Thapar: Alright. Let's just put this matter a little differently. Ever since the split with the CPM in 1964, in almost every single national election, the vote share of your party, the CPI, has steadily come down.
A B Bardhan: And yet we remain a nationally recognised party.
Karan Thapar: Only because they changed the definition. Otherwise, you won't have been a nationally recognised party.
A B Bardhan: No, that was already there. In between, they had introduced this clause only for an election. And they changed it.
Karan Thapar: Just look at the facts, in 1967, your vote share was 5.11 per cent. It's fallen to 1.49 per cent today. At the same time, the CPM vote share have gone up from 4.2 per cent to 5.6 per cent. Of the two parties, yours is the irrelevant one.
A B Bardhan: Look here. Nobody becomes irrelevant. You need to have a one rupee, if somebody has 99 paise, there has to be another one paise to make it full.
Karan Thapar: Do you say that you are the one-paise party?
A B Bardhan: No, I'm saying that this is also necessary. We are 10 seats. We have won 10 seats after contesting 35. They contested all the rest seats in West Bengal and all the rest of the seats in Kerala also, where we contested three only. In this way, you add up the total number of seats that they contested were many times more than us.
Karan Thapar: It's interesting that you are using that as an explanation for the fact that in comparison to the CPM, the CPI is the irrelevant party. Because just look at the rest of comparisons. They have 33 more MPs in the LS than you do. Their national vote share is more than yours. Their Bengal vote share is 20 times yours.
A B Bardhan: That they are a bigger party than ours has been conceded by all. It's known. After all, they are the major party in Bengal. They are the major party in Kerala. A major party in Tripura - in these states, where they are ruling.
Karan Thapar: And as a result, let me tell you what papers like 'The Indian Express' is an editorial to mark your 80th anniversary wrote. They say: "The CPI is not a national party by any stretch of the imagination or electoral definition." The press have written you off.
A B Bardhan: Then the Election Commission must be a set of fools, you see, to provide all these categories. And mind you, we have remained a national party from day one, a recognised party. Others have lost their recognition in between.
Karan Thapar: But I keep pointing at that you only remain a national party because the definition keeps shifting. Shift the goalpost and you manage to stay on in the game. If the goalpost is steady, you are out.
A B Bardhan: The definition always was that you have to be in a minimum of four states, recognised. And that has always suited us.
Karan Thapar: You are putting up a valiant defence against the charge of irrelevance. The facts speak otherwise. But there is one other case that goes against you. Why is the CPI so keen on Left unity? The answer surely is because you have realised that the merger with the CPM is your lifeline for the future.
A B Bardhan: Do you mean to say the CPM does not want Left unity and it is only our desire?
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Karan Thapar: Well, they don't seem to be welcoming your request for merger. They are not keen to join with you.
A B Bardhan: Don't confuse between Left unity and Communist unification. Left unity also includes the Forward Block and the RSP. They are equally keen, you see. And if we were such an irrelevant party, they won't have cared to have us.
Karan Thapar: Do you know what the press says? The only thing that CPI offers the CPM is Ajoy Bhawan, the building where this interview is taking place. Select real estate is what you bring them and not electoral votes.
A B Bardhan: Is that so?
Karan Thapar: That's what the press says.
A B Bardhan: You are quoting one particular paper, I know it, which specialises in slander and anti-Communism. Let's not go into all this.
Karan Thapar: So, is the argument that the CPI is irrelevant is slander?
A B Bardhan: It is. It is a slander.
Karan Thapar: At 1.41 per cent national vote share and 1.79 per cent in your bastion Bengal, you still say it's slander?
A B Bardhan: It is a party that exists. It is a party that is a fighting party.
Karan Thapar: You are slammer than the NCP, which is just six years old.
A B Bardhan: It has nothing to do. It broke out from the Congress. It is a splinter group. It is not a party that grew from zero.
Karan Thapar: And the CMP that broke out of you has become the grand party, you have become the irrelevant smaller partner.
A B Bardhan: Even at that time when they broke out, they were the major group in West Bengal and Kerala. So, they continued to grow.
Karan Thapar: The interesting and paradoxical situation is this: That you are the second oldest political party in the country and in 1950 when India's first Parliament was convened, you leader was the de facto leader of the Opposition. How have you collapsed from that high to this?
A B Bardhan: Where was the CPM? It was a part of this very party. It is this part that went out.
Karan Thapar: So you are saying that the break with the CPM left you half-dead.
A B Bardhan: Yes, it certainly took away the major states like West Bengal and Kerala, where the Left movement was always strong.
Karan Thapar: In which case, why did you not rejoin them earlier. Why did you not come up with the idea of formation of Left unity?
A B Bardhan: You should know the history of political parties. For at least 20 years, these two parties were abusing each other. It took a lot of time to get out of that syndrome. And I am glad that at least today we are together in the Left Front.
Karan Thapar: Can you accept one thing? Even if, as a party leader you want to defy the facts I have thrown at you, can you accept that if the CPI has a future, it can only be by merging with the CPM? And as long as the CPM is reluctant to admit you into their rank, you don't have a future.
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A B Bardhan: You have a very absurd notion about what is meant by a merger. A merger can take place only when both agree.
Karan Thapar: Quite right. And they are not keen at the moment. That's the problem.
A B Bardhan: It is not a question whether they agree or they don't agree. Nor are we pleading with them. We are saying that the Indian Communist Movement has a role. And the Indian Communist Movement can't be strong with splinter groups.
Karan Thapar: Mr Bardhan, behind the facade of what you call the Indian Communist Movement, what you actually are seeking is the merger of CPM and CPI. Because that is the only way you can guarantee a future for your party. Do you admit that?
A B Bardhan: No, there is no necessity for us to admit that.
Karan Thapar: It's too embarrassing to admit?
A B Bardhan: The CPI has a role, the CPM has a role and the Indian Communist Movement will be all the strong if both are together.
Karan Thapar: You say that CPI has role. Just look at the facts. From a vote share in 1977 of 4.82 per cent, you steadily collapsed to 1.47 per cent. What does it prove is that people of this country are turning away from your party.
A B Bardhan: How many time will you repeat the same question? Let me tell you it is because this time we contested 35 seats. Earlier we had contested 58.
Karan Thapar: You know why you contested 35. Because you recognise you are not capable of contesting any more. Next time around, you won't be capable of contesting even a small number.
A B Bardhan: Outside of West Bengal and Kerala, the CPM also contested only as many seats as we did.
Karan Thapar: But inside West Bengal and Kerala, they win and you don't. You have a double disadvantage. Not only can you win in your so-called bastions, you can't contest as much outside your bastions too. On both fronts, you are being squeezed. In 10 years time, the people of India will stop voting for you altogether.
A B Bardhan: Does India constitute of West Bengal and Kerala?
Karan Thapar: But you have got no other voter anywhere else.
A B Bardhan: I may not have.
Karan Thapar: I am talking about your party.
A B Bardhan: I am talking about my country.
Karan Thapar: I am pointing out that because you don't have voters either in West Bengal and Kerala and outside you cease to exist.
A B Bardhan: I am saying that there is a Communist Movement in the whole country. It might be weak in some places. In other places, it may not be as strong as in West Bengal and Kerala.
Karan Thapar: As far as CPI is concerned, it's weak in every place.
A B Bardhan: What is the CPM in these places? Is CPM strong in Orissa, Bihar or in UP or in MO or Chhattisgarh?
Karan Thapar: Let me put it like this. You are comparing yourself with CPM. There is no doubt in anyone's mind that Dr Manmohan Singh and Mrs Gandhi care deeply about the CPM. Do they care about CPI?
A B Bardhan: That you have to ask them.
Karan Thapar: Everyday in the papers and on television, you see them practically frowning attention on Prakash Karat and Sitaram Yechury. Do they care about A B Bardhan and D Raja?
A B Bardhan: Anyway, we are a part of the entire exercise of Left Front and the CPM. They can't manage without us also.
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Karan Thapar: Let's test how much the CPI matter to Dr Manmohan Singh and his government. Your manifesto says and I quote: "The CPI opposes FDI in retail trade. It could not be clearer. And a couple of days ago, the government has given permission FDI in single brand retail. That's a direct snub to your party and there is nothing that you can do about it.
A B Bardhan: There are many things on which they are violating the Common Minimum Programme. And all of this provoke us all. We are going to fight it. And, mind it, they have been talking about it for one year. It took them one year to come to this decision of opening the door only a bit.
Karan Thapar: It doesn't matter how long it takes them. They have taken the decision and there is nothing you can do about it.
A B Bardhan: They are a bourgeois government. They are bound to take certain decisions and we are bound to oppose those decisions. We are certainly against them.
Karan Thapar: It certainly sounds as if opposing is very different from stopping them because you know you can't stop them.
A B Bardhan: For the very simple reason, they are not a government, which we run. They are a government which we support from outside.
Karan Thapar: Forgive the colloquialism, you are going to rant and rave, but beyond that you can't do anything about it.
A B Bardhan: No. We stopped the proposal for 10% disinvestment in Bhel.
Karan Thapar: I will come to that in a moment. But for now, let's stick to FDI. Because they not only permitted FDI in single-brand retail, In Kuala Lumpur in December, the Prime Minister and said that in five or six months he will be taking a positive decision about FDI in retail food. And two weeks ago in this programme, the finance minister said it will permit it in single metro cities before the end of this government. Once again, both the Prime Minister and the Finance Minister don't care about your party's opposition to FDI in retail.
A B Bardhan: It's not a question of my party. It's a question of opposing all the Left parties. Is this only my decision?
Karan Thapar: Well, you talk about opposing all the Left parties. But CPM Chief Minister Buddhadeb Bhattachrya is himself talking to Wal-Mart and he has also said he is willing to consider a Wal-Mart proposal to set up a chain of stores in Bengal. Even the CPM doesn't care about you opposition to FDI in retail.
A B Bardhan: What about Prakash Karat, the General Secretary of CPM?
Karan Thapar: And what about Sitaram Yechury, who publicly on television has made excuses and statements that suggest, just like you, after quarreling with the government, they are going to accept what the government has done. But then the CPM is important, but you are not.
A B Bardhan: This is a question that I would like you to ask Yechury, not me.
Karan Thapar: Let me come back to you. Many times on record you have used the phrase that you are vehemently opposed to FDI in retail. You have said it would be disastrous for India. Now, that the Central government has clearly opened the door and the Prime Minister and the Finance Minister have indicated that the doors may open all the way, what are you going to do?
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A B Bardhan: For all they care for the retail traders. But that is important for my country and myself.
Karan Thapar: That may be so, but what are you going to do?
A B Bardhan: We will fight.
Karan Thapar: How will you fight?
A B Bardhan: How did we fight when trade unions on September 19th went on a general strike all over the country?
Karan Thapar: I will tell you how did you fight. You opposed the government for increasing levels of FDI in telecom. You wrote letters of protests to the Prime Minister, yet when the government increased the limits, you kept quite. You were silent.
A B Bardhan: With all these questions, you no longer attack the CPI. You attack the entire Left.
Karan Thapar: I am attacking specially the CPIs points on this.
A B Bardhan: But the CPI has the same points with other Left parties.
Karan Thapar: Except for the fact that you wrote letters of protest. You said you were going to fight. And I am asking you, how are you going to fight?
A B Bardhan: You care, we also fought on the question of Iran, the vote of the Government of India on Iran?
Karan Thapar: I will come to that. But first tell me about retail trade. Now that the Government has opened the door, how are you going to fight?
A B Bardhan: We are going to fight. And the Government does not dare open the doors fully at one stroke.
Karan Thapar: Dare not open fully? But in stages they are permitted?
A B Bardhan: No, in stages they are trying to do and test the waters. Isn't it? They started with cash and carry, now they have gone to retail.
Karan Thapar: Interesting, you keep saying that you will fight. The Government defies you. you keep silent. They open the door one more stage. The government is winning, the CPI is losing.
A B Bardhan: I thought you are the Devil's Advocate. Now, I am sure that you are because you are trying to defend a devil.
Karan Thapar: Well, maybe so, and you are saying this with a smile on your face. But the point that I am making has still not been answered. You say you are going to fight, but you can't tell me how. You are going to fight. And in the meantime, the doors keep opening.
A B Bardhan: How does anybody fight in a democracy, you tell me. There can be an ultimate weapon of withdrawing.
Karan Thapar: It seems you fight with the government in television interviews, but actually face to face you give in to them.
A B Bardhan: Then you have to sometimes come and televise our coordination committee meetings. Do you mean to say fighting has to become physical?
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Karan Thapar: So, you are saying to me that in your Coordination Committee Meeting, you fight with Dr Manmohan Singh? You argue?
A B Bardhan: Of course, we do.
Karan Thapar: You lose your temper?
A B Bardhan: Of course you do. Sometimes he also loses his temper.
Karan Thapar: So, in fact, there are quarrelsome meetings?
A B Bardhan: Sometimes.
Karan Thapar: And at the end of the day, he wins the quarrel?
A B Bardhan: At the end of the day, it is he who is in power, not I.
Karan Thapar: Aaah! Power is a big difference!
A B Bardhan: It does make a difference.
Karan Thapar: Supposedly, he can't stay in power without your support.
A B Bardhan: If you remember, we fought in Gurgaon. And ultimately they had to bow.
Karan Thapar: Let's come to distinvestment. Two weeks ago, on this programme the Finance Minister said that the Left party had cleared distinvestment in equity in profitable non-Navratna PSUs. And this would be a regular, continuing distinvestment process and not a one-off. Almost at the same time, you said to 'Outlook' magazine and I quote: "The Left has never agreed to non-Navratna disinvestment. All this talk about a volte-face is a canard. We merely said we would consider the proposal."
A B Bardhan: That is all. The Finance Minister is not telling the truth.
Karan Thapar: Tell me, who should we believe, Mr Chidambaram or you?
A B Bardhan: And why should you not believe us when we are saying it in the open?
Karan Thapar: The real test of who to believe is will disinvestment in profitable non-Navratna PSUs happen? Are you telling us that it won't happen?
A B Bardhan: Are you telling me that we are not fighting them?
Karan Thapar: On, fight you may be. But as I said you lost every other fight.
A B Bardhan: You mean a fight is a fight only when you succeed?
Karan Thapar: Well, what's the purpose of the fight otherwise?
A B Bardhan: We as a trade unionists have fought many a battle with employers.
Karan Thapar: Children fight for no purpose. Grown-ups fight to win.
A B Bardhan: They fight, because fighting is the most important thing whether you win or not.
Karan Thapar: It sounds to me as if the CPI can only fight regardless of whether it has any prospect of winning or not. Because it is the only way to save its honour.
A B Bardhan: Listen, as a trade unionist, I have fought thousands of battles, and I tell you I perhaps have won only a few hundreds.
Karan Thapar: The test of this fight is the following question, when? When the equity in profitable non-Navratna PSUs goes on sale? What will you do?
A B Bardhan: We will fight, we will oppose.
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Karan Thapar: Oppose you will, but if it happens then what will you do?
A B Bardhan: We might take some more steps.
Karan Thapar: Like?
A B Bardhan: Are you provoking us for taking more steps? Is that the part of the mandate that you have?
Karan Thapar: Not at all. The Indian people want to know how sure is this man about fighting. That's what I am trying to find out?
A B Bardhan: The Indian people take advantage of whatever struggles we are carrying on.
Karan Thapar: At the moment, Indian people are alarmed by the loudmouth statements that the CPI makes.
A B Bardhan: It's not a question of the CPI making the statement. It's the same statement of the entire Left.
Karan Thapar: A moment ago, you mentioned Iran. Next week, on the second of third of February, the IAEA will meet to vote on the future of Iran. You have repeatedly said that if India votes against Iran for a second time, the government will repent. That one is your phrase. But now it seems apparent to everybody that is exactly what the government is going to do: Vote against Iran. Once again they are calling your bluff.
A B Bardhan: They will repent. If the government wants to side with the US on all subjects, yield to its dictates, what its pro-consul comes here and tells the govt to do - that -"if you can't do this, then we won't do that."
Karan Thapar: What can you do if they do that?
A B Bardhan: The whole people of this country have also a say. It is not Mr Manmohan Singh or Mr Chidambaram on one side and we on the other side.
Karan Thapar: You are becoming philosophical. I am asking you a straight question, if the government defies you on this also, what will you do?
A B Bardhan: I am giving you a straight answer. I think the people of this country also have a say. And should have a say. .
Karan Thapar: The people of this country may well want the government to do that. What will the CPI do? Because the CPI does not want the government to do that.
A B Bardhan: Yes, we will fight, we will oppose.
Karan Thapar: But how? I have been asking you, but you don't tell me.
A B Bardhan: Look, there is another way. If the Left withdraws all its support, the government will collapse the next day. You want that?
Karan Thapar: Are you threatening that?
A B Bardhan: Are you wanting that?
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Karan Thapar: Well, this is not the first time you have threatened, On 29th March in Chandigarh, this is precisely what you said: "The time can come when we say goodbye to you as we have said to others," Dr Manmohan Singh isn't quaking, Mrs Gandhi isn't worried. They don't care about the threats you making about withdrawing support.
A B Bardhan: You seems to be a great psychologist, who knows what Manmohan Singh is thinking. Whether she is worried or not.
Karan Thapar: Well, there is no sign of panic. No signs of worry. Nine months have passed since you made this statement.
A B Bardhan: I don't want to quote what he said to us at the meeting one day.
Karan Thapar: But I think you might have to because the credibility of your party is at stake.
A B Bardhan: Should I say this? No, I won't like to put PM's comment on TV.
Karan Thapar: I am accusing you of threatening to withdraw support and I am saying that the government laughs at your threats.
A B Bardhan: You did threaten once that we will not cooperate, we will remain outside. We remained outside. Did they not come down? Was it we who came down?
Karan Thapar: As the moment, the government survives on your support. They take it for granted. They do things that are a violation of your manifesto. And beyond telling me in your grand terms that you will fight, you can't do anything else.
A B Bardhan: I don't take advice from the devil. But if it is another time, you will see we will withdraw.
Karan Thapar: You know the problem with the CPI? It can't deliver on its words. As a result, you get hung on your own threats. Once again, let me quote you. Within days of the patent bill being passed, this is what you said: " Patents will ensure that often a patient is left to die because we cannot afford medicines to cure him." Then you added: "The last word has not been said about the Patent Bill. Since then nine months have passed. The Bill has come into effect. Your objections have been forgotten. The government is having the last laugh.
A B Bardhan: Here you have been completely wrongly briefed. Let me tell you when I said that, the Patent Bill was in the Parliament. And when it was passed, it was because of the pressure of the Left at last eight amendments were made.
Karan Thapar: I wish you were right. But you aren't. You said this on 29th March in Chandigarh. The Patent Bill had been passed by the Lok Sabha and Rajya Sabha earlier. And that's why you said the last word on the Patent Bill had not been said. The problem is that the last word has been said by the Government, not you.
A B Bardhan: That was a part of the struggle.
Karan Thapar: Yakub Hamid of Cipla had publicly said that the Patent Bill amounted to genocide. You were reacting to that. You realised that in fact the Patents Bill had gone further that you wanted. You then said you will try and revive it. The government laughed at you.
A B Bardhan: You want to say no amendments will be introduced further? You wait for other amendments to come into the Bill.
Karan Thapar: You are about to bring some, are you?
A B Bardhan: The government will bring.
Karan Thapar: When?
A B Bardhan: You have only to wait and see.
Karan Thapar: People listening to this interview will remember the Big Bad Wolf in the children's fairy stories. They will think like the Big Bad Wolf, Mr A b Bardhan can huff and A B Bardhan can puff, but he can't blow the house down.
A B Bardhan: I am not saying I can bring down the House on my own. I am not saying that at all. But I am saying if this government dares attack the Left and to ignore the Left, then a day will certainly come.
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Karan Thapar: In this the only thing you have achieved is to lower the standing of the CPI in the eye of the public. An editorial written to mark your 80th anniversary said this: "The CPI talks too much and makes too little sense. Its verbal excesses make the Left lonelier than it is.
A B Bardhan: It is the same editorial from the same paper that you are quoting.
Karan Thapar: Quite right. And its a widely read paper and a highly respected paper.
A B Bardhan: I am not saying anything. I don't attack any paper for that matter.
Karan Thapar: This is the standing of your party?
A B Bardhan: What?
Karan Thapar: That you are not only irrelevant, not only do you not have a national or a Bengal vote share, but you make the Left look more lonely than it is.
A B Bardhan: You are almost making it appear as if that paper is sort of somebody who should be respected by everything else. But I do respect all papers.
Karan Thapar: I am repeating this question again. Do Dr Manmohan Singh and Mrs Gandhi take you seriously?
A B Bardhan: Go and ask them.
Karan Thapar: You said to me a moment ago you quarrel but do they care about your quarrelling?
A B Bardhan: I am saying you should go and ask them whether they take us seriously or not?
Karan Thapar: I put it to you that of all the Left parties the one that's been taken for a ride by the government is yours.
A B Bardhan: Why should it be. If it is doing all this, it is not attacking CPI, it's attacking the CPM, the Forward Block and the RSP also. Because all these parties are put together by us.
Karan Thapar: Of them, they are worried. But of you, they take you for granted.
A B Bardhan: Why do they mind about the Forward Block and RSP and not about us. You have no explanation.
Karan Thapar: For the simple reason that you huff and puff, but you can't blow the house down.
A B Bardhan: Who is to blow the house down and who has said that he will blow the house down? If the house is India, if the house is the Government at the Centre, we should not blow it down.
Karan Thapar: Well, that's enough to bring a big smile to Dr Manmohan Singh.
Mr Bardhan it's a pleasure talking to you on Devil's Advocate.
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